Okay. My previous post may have been a bit too Pollyanna-ish (esque? So hard to keep track). While it’s true that we’ve (been) shed(ding) our reputation under Arsène as a club that would low-ball other clubs, dither, and ultimately lose out on coveted players, the saga with Declan Rice has taken a sordid, undesirable turn. Man City have picked up the scent of blood with the unslakable, remorseless accuracy of a starving shark, and we’ll soon find out just what kind of player, what kind of person, Declan Rice really is.
For weeks now, the story has been that Rice wants to stay in London and play Champions League football. That position narrowed his options considerably, considering that we’re the only club that ticks both boxes. However, he’s now “open to many move” according to Fabrizio Romano, the Orstein-wannabe. If that’s true, then all bets are off, and it will come down to just how much West Ham think they can get…and just what kind of minerals Rice has.
You can’t blame West Ham here. They’re about to sell their best player; it’s their prerogative to drag their heels and feign injury and take their sweet time on set plays and so on. But for their need to re-invest, they could stall until just before the window closes. While we may resent them for refusing to budge, they’re right to do so. We’d expect the same if we were ever in the position of having to sell a talismanic player who’d…um…nevermind. Let’s get to Rice and his options.
Staying Put
He could simply stay. If he did, he’d have a chance at joining a pantheon of club legends: Bobby Moore, Trevor Booking, Billy Bonds, Geoff Hurst, Alvin Martin, and Mark Noble, among others. Sure, he’d all but forfeit any chance at silverware beyond that Europa Conference League or the occasional League Cup, plus maybe a long-shot chance at the FA Cup or maybe even a Europa League title, but he’d retire as a beloved player who stayed loyal despite—or, indeed, precisely because of—the interest from bigger, better-heeled clubs. He’d get a statue outside the London Stadium. This, sadly for long-suffering Hammers fans, seems like the least-likely option.
Selling his soul
Ah, yes. Man City. Where the streets are paved with gold, the pigeons poop doubloons, and the maidens are fair…Now that rumours of Man City are apparently stealing Chelsea’s idea of stealing our transfer targets, Rice has to consider what it would mean to sell his soul. Sure, he’d grease the skids on a path to easy silverware—one, two, and occasionally three trophies a season—but he’d have to consider what he’s sold and at what price. Man City just won the treble, after all. Rice has to know that they don’t really need him even after Gündoğan’s left. They’ve signed Kovačić, for what that’s worth. Rice has to know that he’d be just another expensive bauble, just another gaudy trinket rotating and sharing time with Kovačić, Rodri, and Phillips, not to mention Stones and Silva, who each slot in at DM from time to time.
Joining Arsenal
Does he have the minerals to join a young and upcoming squad that fell heartbreakingly short of winning the Prem? Does he see himself as an indispensable fighter who demands to play every weekend to help his club earn silverware? Is he hungry enough to help us take the next step? Only he can answer those questions, but the role he plays in resolving this transfer saga will give us some tea leaves that will be about as easy to interpret as the word-search on a kids’ menu. Joining this club would show that Rice doesn’t just want to be a barnacle on the hull of some massive man o’ war. He wants to be at the helm or at least on deck, fighting and scrapping and grappling. We can’t guarantee silverware the way that City can. We can offer him a chance to feel like he’s earned whatever we do get.
So what’s it going to be, Dec? Of the three options, I think you’ll know my unbiased opinion. I mean that—for example, I still hold a grudging respect for Jamie Vardy who, while a bit thick in other ways, spurned us to stay at Leicester and presumably retire as one of the Fox’s all-time greats. The next contract you sign will likely cover the best period of your life, so I understand how important it is to you. You have a short span of time to earn the most money you can in this profession, you have a family to feed, you have decades to live after your career is over. I do hope you’ll spend the next five years (or more) of that career here, earning that money and (one hopes) earning those trophies.
Perfectly put. He can sit on the bench next to Kalvin Phillips and watch Rodri or he can play every week and be pivotal to a young team. His choice.
I understand the allure of playing for City. It’s not everyone who can win a trophy. I prefer my players to be fighters not passengers.
Better to sit and be a winner than to work your socks off and fail isn’t it?
People will remember the treble not the capitulation when you were eight points clear.
That’s a philosophical question that gets to the heart of what I’m trying to say here. What’s better? A smaller role for a guaranteed winner or a larger role for a potential winner? I don’t think there’s an obvious “right’ answer. Speaking for myself, I want those willing to fight over those willing to go along for the ride.
That’s a false dilemma, mate. Other options exist. In addition to sitting for a winner or working his socks off for a failure, he could actually work his socks off for a winner, and I can almost guarantee you 100% that this would feel better than your first option. Ask someone like Alex Song how it feels to be surplus to requirements. Yeah, you get to touch the golden chalice, you maybe even drink from it, but you don’t ever really get to feel like you’ve earned it. Imposter syndrome.
If he wants trophies he will go to City.
It’s as simple as that.
Champions league every season.
Premiership winners medals.
Why would he want to go to Arsenal?
Arsenal low ball every time and lose out every time and we then say what a great job they are doing – what an astute man Edu is.
You know – they deliberately bid low knowing it will be rejected, knowing a competitor will bid what the selling club want and then say “we tried to sign him”
We just sign the cast offs the big clubs don’t want – the Havertz’s of the world – makes Chelsea a bit closer to FFP safety.
We all know what will happen here so what is the fucking point
I don’t share your pessimism, ME. I do think we still have a solid chance at securing his services. It’s not entirely up to him (despite what i insinuate in the post). If West Ham refuse to accept our bid and want to wait for a better offer from City, all we can do is increase our offer and see what happens.
It’s a pity Kante went to Saudi Arabia.
A washed up Chelsea player is just about our level.
Stupid to expect anything ambitious from Arsenal.
Again, Me, needlesly pessimistic. The “washed up Chelsea player” notion is a lazy reference to a couple of players we signed before Arteta could find his footing and while we urgently needed capable bodies. Cech was solid. Luiz was equal measures good and bad, much as he’d been before. Willian played one good match before collapsing. That’s…that’s about it.
Jorginho – one for the future
We just recycle their crap.
I don’t see much to be optimistic about.
Jorginho was a decent signing, not quite on Trossard’s level but added some depth & experience where we needed it. It feels like some cognitive dissonance is kicking in, you’re only looking for evidence that confirms your opinion and ignoring that which contradicts it.
He is ambitious, he will go to City, if you look at how he transferred his nationality from Ireland to England the same will be true of this move, he will head to where he will win the most trophies.
I doubt he will stay on a bench wherever he goes, his level increases every game who knows how good he will be, he is a class player and even though the papers have mentioned Arsenal a lot, it’s just paper talk, it looks like he has kept his options open and stayed quiet.
Yeah, it still sticks in my craw a bit that he turned his back on Ireland (I’m Irish-American). Such a move suggests ambition, which is not a bad quality to have. Speaking selfishly, though, I do hope he makes the “right” decision of coming to Arsenal.
He definitely is not going to start in front of Rodri.. In fact at Arsenal he won’t start unless one of Partey or Xhaka leaves..
I hope he goes to City in time for Arsenal to chase the bevy of 21 yr Olds who are better than Rice and cheaper.
It seems pretty certain that Xhaka is leaving. Partey may be right behind him. Rice is better than Xhaka, maybe not better than Partey.
Whom among the 21 year olds would you prefer?
Jesus christ. As if arsenal are some poor little bullied school boy. If he wants to play under the best, go to city.
Where do I make it seem like we’re a bullied little school boy?
Oh dear, more bitterness much like the scousers, it was OK to muscle in on other clubs transfer targets when you were winning honours but now others are stepping on your toes and the Teddy is launched! Calling a player out for wanting success, I really don’t understand, I think of players like Shearer and Kane, wonderful, world class but without much in the trophy cabinet, I wonder how they feel? Stay put and become a potless hero, stay away from the most successful club of the last 10+ years, playing some of the best football ever seen and the chance to plau under one of the greatest coaches ever, renowned for their improvement of even the best players. Stop whingeing, get real and accept other clubs can spend as much as you (and more) and accept you’re no longer top dogs.
Okay, you had me there right up until the very end. “Spend as much as you (and more)” tipped your hand. No one has spent as much as Man City over the last five-ten years – and that’s counting what they have admitted to spending. 115 alleged financial violations suggest that they’ve spent quite a lot more on fees & wages.
Twenty years ago, we got to the top not by outspending anyone but by spending well under Arsene’s belief in a self-sustaining club. Bergkamp? 10m. Henry? 15m. Vieira? 5m. That’s hardly muscling in. Each of these icons was struggling or unknown, wanted a move, and we made it. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period during which we’ve been able to out-muscle another club the way that Man City can. If West Ham want to wait in order to drive up Rice’s fee, that’s their right. They’d be foolish to do otherwise.
I’m not calling Rice out for wanting success; I’m exploring the nature of the success he’d secure.
From our starting point, it was inevitable that we would have to spend as we did, that’s what FFP was about (you remember writing the round robin letter to all the governing bodies, pleading with them to stop us) and so they brought its introduction forward by two years, didn’t help much did it? Stopping likkle City and any other upstarts who had the nerve the audaciousness to try to compete with the old elite of Europe, under the pretext of preventing debt – yeah right, the rags at one point were £1.6 BILLION in debt, stop overspending – Yeah right, tell that to Chelsea, it was all about preserving certain clubs places at the trough of Europe. So yes, huge spending in the first 5 years or so but not since. Grealish you’ll say, yes but when you’re the best, you need to employ the best but who else Akanji £15 million and wins a Prem, FA Cup and CL, Alvarez £14 million and wins a Prem, FA Cup, CL and world cup, these players were unknown, we bought them and look at them now, all the other first team have been average or below in cost and have greatly increased in value since signing. Look at the youth team players coming through, many being lined up for first team duties next season or loaned out to decent clubs around Europe for experience or sold to keep our nett spend to below £100 million a season for the last 10 seasons and look at the success and revenue that brings. You point the finger for our spending but look at yourselves for what happens when you won’t even spend normal amounts on players, back in the top 4 for the first time in what 7/8 years and playing crap football in that time. The prices you quote for those players was what 25/30 years ago, what are they when adjusted for inflation? Glad you said alleged but your tone is like all the rest, guilty until proven innocent and even then won’t accept it.
I see your point but will look askance at any numbers related to Man City’s transfers, net spend and others pending this investigation. While I will agree that City have targeted and purchased very astutely – very few if any flops, unlike other free-spending clubs – the sheer amount that the club has claimed to have spent still boggles the mind.
My point in quoting the fees we paid for those elite players is that their fees were well in line with the fees being paid for other players – some, indeed more similar to the fees you quoted for players like Akanji and Alvarez.
Again, though, until (if) Man City can answer those charges of financial impropriety, a massive asterisk will attach to any and all achievements they have.
It’s simple, stop messing West Ham around with insulting bids and payment terms and you’ll probably get him, but your clubs MO leaves a lot to be desired and if City are serious they will go straight in at what West Ham are asking and the deal will be done, so the minerals as you say are the things that Arsenal are currently lacking, failure to get Rice will be nothing other than a failure on the part of Arsenal to get the deal done when they had the chance.
Well, a few days ago, our approach seemed solid. West Ham had come down from their insistence on a 120m fee and might have been close to accepting our 90m bid. Now, of course, it’s time for us to show whether we have those minerals. I hope our next bid shows that we do…
Wow John this one’s provoked some debate, it seems like you even have a few neutrals and rivals weighing in. We really have to get Rice bc Caicedo’s been lured away by Chelsea. who else is out there?
JW is right, if you’re a serious club then stop messing WH around. However, the recent facts are PL 20/21 WH 6th ARS 8th, 21/22 WH reach SF EL ARS no Euro football, PL 21/22 ARS 5th WH 7th 22/23 ARS KO R16 EL WH win ECL, 23/23 PL ARS 2nd WH 14th…. So really, following one good PL season, but no trophies makes Arsenal the right destination for Rice? In same period he’s won Euro trophy with WH. I think he deserves better.
Looked at another way, our worst spell in ages also saw us win two FA Cups, two Community Shields, and finish second in the Europa League. West Ham meanwhile faced relegation in at least two seasons while winning this Europa Conference League trophy, that’s a tinpot trophy if anyone ever saw one. Winning the Carabao is tougher. Hell, winning the Community Shield is tougher, you at least have to win the Prem or FA Cup to qualify. I agree we should stop low-balling and just go to a clean bid of 100m or so to get rice but the idea that West Ham have had a better time of it lately is ridiculous.
Thom, definitely not suggesting WH have had a better time of it, it’s just that in Rice’s five year professional career, Arsenal’s fortunes compared to WH have not been that stellar. Your FA Cup win in that time was the result of four wins against lowly competitors and then great wins against City and Chelsea, which of course qualified you to play Liverpool in CS to win on penalties… congratulations, but not the record of a truly top side in those five years. Sadly Hammer’s fans have our regular brush with relegation and hence when we do win something we do tend to get excited, so it’s rather sadly disingenuous to just dismiss it as “a tinpot trophy” and I’m sure if Arsenal had had the opportunity to win it you’d have been celebrating much the same. The win came after 15 Thursday matches (14W 1D) which as am sure you know greatly impacts PL fortunes, rather than the 6 matches it takes to win the FA Cup. I guess you would similarly belittle Wrexham’s amazing season and their fan’s greatest joy they’d had since that Mickey Thomas FA Cup goal. Dare I point out that Arsenal’s only success ever in Europe came in the CWC (like WH) and the third tier Fairs cup, the ECL of its time… so we’re equal on that one…. No I won’t talk about World Cups LOL!! I was cheering on Arsenal this last season, but sadly they fell short in potentially their “one shot” in a generation. As a genuine fan of Rice I really hope he achieves the very highest success in his career and that might be possible under Arteta, and Rice is the missing player, so pay the money and rival City, and for Rice’s and England’s sake I hope you do so.
after all join a cheating club? Even if city win the battle everyone knows how they win, over use of FFP for decade or more… Philips? hmm think there was a great CM, but i never see him anymore 😉 ohh yeah hes on city bench… i don’t think he feels as valueble winning the treble as he fekt when he got Leeds up? but yeah cash and shiny toys fills his home
Exactly. Join Citeh and rot on their bench until Pep pisses off and those financial violations come home to roost!
FYI Phillips has had a terrible season with injuries and hasn’t even been on the bench for much of it. He’ll hopefully get a pre season this time and show what he’s capable of. Love all this FFP crap though, just remind me, who controlled spending before we arrived at the top table or were clubs allowed to spend as they wished?
Ask any Irish person what kind of player Rice is. That transfer is now over.
While there is some general debate here, there is also some ignorance about football, competing in multiple competitions, and squad rotation. There is also lazy assumptions and plain old bitterness about “Citeh”.
Players and staff love working in Manchester, with the atmosphere, spirit and togetherness often cited as key factors to success. Jack Grealish took time to settle (or rot on the bench as the lazy metaphor goes) but worked his socks off to be instrumental in all three trophies this season. Most players experience the same.
When players want to go they leave with the club’s blessing and we don’t jeer (ex-)players until they cry. Arteta was trained up, by Citeh, for you and he’s also taken many great players down to you too. By the way the replacements cost £11m (Sergio Gomez) and £14m (Julian Alvarez) – so that bursts the idea we are inflating the market or only pay big bucks to tempt players.
Declan Rice (who started at Chelsea btw) must choose Arsenal, why? … and if he doesn’t he’s got no minerals / soul / ambition? Then he will be hounded and jeered by Gooners every time he touches a ball. The arrogant assumption that Arsenal is an angel club that’s hard done by and grows all its players in pots, and has the cheapest season tickets in the land … but has been owned by how many shady billionaires? and financed by the Emirates too – no problem, I don’t believe England is a better country than any other … in fact, the opposite. And with Irish family Declan will know all about the history and honour of the English!
Good luck to Declan wherever he chooses. He’s a lucky young man, living the dream and will probably end up at Arsenal – rejoice.
Be happy, don’t believe the bitter lies and anti-Arab narratives, and stop blaming Citeh for your club’s lack of management.
Where’s anyone said that Arsenal are an angel club that’s hard done by? We have some of the most expensive tickets in England (compared to MCFC whose tickets are fairly cheap because they don’t rely on revenues to fund their purchases it must be said). Kroenke might be a billionaire but he’s hardly as shady as Mansour or Abramovich, in fact the worst that can be said of him is that he hasn’t paid enough attention to this club nor spent enough until the last 12 months or so.
you get closer to home when oyu comment on the supposed honour of the English, and sadly, Declan seems to have traded his Irishness in long go.
There’s nothing anti-Arab in worrying about what it means when a mutlibillionaire can buy any player he wants without any worry about what it all means. Abramovich ain’t Arab, he’s the one who got this ball rolling.
As for lack of management, it must be said that “Citeh” are a model for how to manage a club. Cook the books, hoard up the best talent on and off the pitch, and hope that the authorities are as toothless metaphorically as they are literally.
Give Arteta and Guardiola clones of, say, Brentford’s squad and I’d wager Arteta wins nine times out of ten.
Unfortunately, clubs haven’t a chance of winning anything without heavy investment but it’s been like that for 50+ years.
Never mind Premier League fans squabbling over which club’s billionaire is the billionest being pointless when even the Championship is richer than most countries’ leagues.
The difference between MCFC and Arsenal is that not only has City invested in the club, but also all of East Manchester and has provided so much employment and still keep ticket prices down for locals so excuse us if we don’t hate our owners. I’d prefer them to Tories and our monarchy any day!
As I pointed out before, it’s a misconception City buys whomever they want and are regularly priced out by United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Daniel Levy. However, we were forced to pay over odds for Grealish but that has more to do with the attitude that English players are more valuable (better?) than foreigners… Why West Ham want £115m for Declan Rice (madness)!
Re: Abu Dhabi being ‘shady’, let’s not forget England once occupied virtually all the Gulf States sucking wealth out of the region, like it has all over the world, but had to hand them back to the locals in the early 70s. The families / tribes who owned the land and its oil are hardly at fault for this wealth – it is not ill gotten wealth like that of Abramovich or the English Crown and where do you want them to invest their money when the Tories have opened England for business?
I like Arsenal as a club and its fans are decent, and have never caused damage around Europe unlike Liverpool and Chelsea fans but the concerted effort of the “old” establishment to stop other clubs investing is an unfairness. Making up rules after the fact makes it clear how fair rich old clubs, and their corrupt crony pals in the FA, PL, Uefa and Fifa, are.
All the reasons you spout for him joining Arsenal could equally be applied to West Ham. Arsenal won’t win the CL or the Premier for the foreseeable, so if a healthy run in the FA/Carabao Cups, or the Europa/Con, are enough – why shouldn’t Dec stay with the club he actually loves? The article sounds like you’re already convinced he won’t be joining your lot anyway, and you just want to get your retaliation in before he heads north. Which is actually kind of pathetic…
Looking into this, West Ham have always said they want North of £ 100m or would take less if a player(s) went the other way. That is their entitlement. As for Rice the player, surely he has the belief that he will be a mainstay in a City team, playing in the majority of games, but missing some through rotation which in the long run can only be beneficial to both him and the club. Like it or not, West Ham, like any other club, will take the best deal available. If Arsenal want Rice enough, they will have to outbid City, simple really.
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